💯

I understand his argument but there's no denying that in terms of sheer numbers, there are more people on those huge platforms than on the other side of the web. What are we doing now to make the web more accessible and user-friendly to those people?

That's all well and good BUT... while many of us love blogs and a more open web what about the people who love and use TikTok and the corporate social media? I'm not one of them. I left FB years ago and stopped using Instagram several years ago. I don't use TikTok except when a relative shares a link to a video they think is funny.

But I think we should be careful in our idealistic statements because that corporate web, for all its many downsides, still serves billions of people that are not us. While it's full of misinformation, TikTok is being used by a whole generation to keep up on current events. And I think we can all agree that misinformation and bias are not just to be found on social media sites. Fox News, CNN, MSNBC all have their own bias and agenda. Some are worse than others of course. But the point is that, in terms of daily news, the corporate internet dominates.

At least with TikTok we also see meaningful, valuable information being shared by users to users which is especially important in social movements and social justice struggles. From the MeToo movement to Black Lives Matter in the US or more international developments (Ukraine, Gaza to name the most recent), it's social media that has been useful.

Which makes this quote from the post you link to seem pretty ridiculous: "Sure, it’s a lot harder to reach a million people if you have to start from your own little corner of the web. But you know what? Tough shit."

That statement comes from a position of priviledge. The small indy web is largely dominated by white, middle class straight men and good for them that they have their place on the internet. Meanwhile TikTok and the corporate social media is far more diverse because it's more accessible and that's important to remember.

@pratik is that the goal? I don't know, I kind of think centralized platforms is exactly what makes the web more accessible and user-friendly. And I'm not sure how bad all that is.

@jsonbecker That’s what I was implying. The centralized platform get lot of stuff right that the indie web doesn’t. Is it the centralized part of it that makes the difference or making the UX/UI more frictionless?

@pratik I think they go hand in hand. So does the financial model. I don't think indieweb can give you the UX/UI, plus be free, plus be both frictionless and an engine for that level of reach without some bit of centralization and platform control. I do think these things are tradeoffs, and the "typical" person will fall off with very minimal friction, because the purported indie/open web benefits are largely small and philosophical if not fictional.

@jsonbecker Yup. Agree. The indie web movement does come across as privileged and condescending to the vast majority of people. “Why are you not smart enough to figure out how to setup web mentions on your self-hosted blog so you can own your data?”

@koteisaev I dunno, we have the phrase "starving artist" because it has always been difficult. I'm not sure anything is significantly different now, although AI will certainly upset things.

@pratik I understand why you think that, though I feel that’s at least a little unfair and the result of a bunch of people co-opting the infrastructure of the IndieWeb. I say that because a part of the indieweb was specifically making it possible and preferable to build your own tools and build software for one. So I think that mindset is actually core, but they have, through that work, stumbled upon some primitives and things worth making standards to help lots of tech use that stuff. I don’t think they think people are dumb, but I do think that they think that if someone wants an out of the box experience, they can go pay for a centralized service (like Micro.blog) to take care of things. The problem is, IMO, without a centralized service driving things, there’s always just tons of small incompatibilities. ActivityPub faces the same problem, and you see people complaining all the time about it when they realize that Mastodon is not ActivityPub and that their niche thing on top of ActivityPub does not magically, by saying the word ActivityPub, seamless work how their mental model expects with anything else that says ActivityPub.

I don’t mind the messiness and I think it is inherent. And I think lots of people don’t want the mess, and I respect their choice to use other platforms as a result. That’s why I cross post— to meet them where they are while I get to do things my way.

@jsonbecker I'm mostly commenting on the attitude of people involved with the inde web. I totally understand why they want that experience and are willing to invest time into creating that customized setup. Maybe even the process is part of the fun for them. But I wish they would understand that not everyone or rather a vast majority doesn't. So I find it befuddling when they say, if all the centralized platforms disappear, those people still have the web but if only they tried hard enough to understand how to use it. Why doesn't the indie web folks try and understand why Twitter was so loved and even people with full-fledged blogs spent a lot of time on it.

@pratik I think they understand deeply! And the reality is that if you work really hard to solve those problems you end up reinventing something just like Twitter. The advantages lead to the risk, and the middle ground is deeply unsatisfying.

@jsonbecker @pratik I have a marketing friend whose whole job is to not just use social media, but use it correctly, to get their clients’ messages out. If the centralized platforms disappeared, her job would just adapt to Mastadon or some other system. I think it’s the same with the average non-techie and the indie web. They’ll use what the “experts” tell them to use and repeat the actions to post their photos like rituals, regardless of whether it’s “accessible” or on their level. They’re used to either tech being awful, or paying people to handle it for them.

Google search used to control and shape the web but that's changing. To find interesting books, great quotes, and intriguing podcasts, more people should know about micro.blog Discover!